User talk:Entim

From The Elder Scrolls Construction Set Wiki

Contents 1 Talk about script processing 2 Other Talk 3 Useful Tools 4 That "find ground" script you had been working on

[edit] Talk about script processing

Entim 19:50, 11 November 2006 (EST): One month ago I have started this section with a question. I have asked, and received some help, but mainly it was my (badly organized, hard to follow) monologue. I'm trying to summarize it now.

I have created a system, which deals with relatively large amount of objects created with PlaceAtMe function. There is a link to a video somewhere below in the Other Talk section, it shows the system in action. During testing I experienced a weird effect, and I suspected that not every object's GameMode block was processed in every frame. I followed Dragoon Wraith's advice, and used the PrintToConsole OBSE function for debugging. This way I could create detailed debug logs, and could confirm my suspection. Further testing indicated that it is also applies to OnLoad blocks, and I suspect (not sure) whole scripts not processed sometimes. I don't know what factors control when this 'sometimes' happens, but my tests indicate it is in relation with framerate, and maybe the number of function calls, or maybe the type of functions of that script.

I wonder if anyone has ever experienced something similar.

Yep, me. There appears to be a 4-depth recursion limit on object activation that also prevents you creating more than 4 (scripted) PlaceAtMe objects at a time within a single frame. Sometimes this results in objects being stacked for creation over multiple frames. The effect is easily seen if you have a spell that summons multiple copies of the same base creature. Only a few of them will animate smoothly at a time [because of this recursion limit per base object per frame?]. Additionally, when there is alot of processing within a frame, e.g. when a few actors are in combat, scripts (e.g. GameMode blocks) do not get called reliably every frame. For this reason, when programming actors with tokens it is best to rely on real time for behavior effects over multiple frames. I've also noticed that with multiple scripted objects (e.g. throwing items) that one copy may stop processing for a while and resume later when another finishes updating. However, when I use persistant copies of the same base object, which are treated as distinct, all of them will be processed - indicating again that spurious effects are related to having multiple instances of identical objects, not just the total number of objects currently being processed. The OB system of object management is actually very complicated and designed such that activation calls do not have to return when interrupted by a frame click. When a PlaceAtMe command is issued only half of the object is instantiated. The 3D component(s) are not created until the next frame click, presumably as this is when the visible world is updated. This is why you can do somethings immediately after creation, e.g. SetPos, while other commands, e.g. PMS, requires that you wait a frame or two (until their first GameMode pass executes). Similarly, MessageBox, Container activation, etc., create new threads that return immediately but only one such thread for a particular object can exist at a time. A subsequent call deletes and replaces the existing thread if it has not exited normally (e.g. pressing the Exit button.) Guidobot 19:11, 12 April 2007 (EDT)

Entim 13:59, 16 April 2007 (EDT): Thanks for sharing your experiences. I've noticed scripts on persistent references pause sometimes.

(For more detail check the 8th November 2006 state of this page. Related forum thread with another script processing issue.)

[edit] Other Talk

Dragoon Wraith TALK 11:32, 9 June 2007 (EDT): Just FYI, we have category tags that are typically appended to Vandals and Spammers, [[Category: Users: Vandals|<INSERT THEIR USERNAME HERE>]] and [[Category: Users: Spammer|<INSERT THEIR USERNAME HERE>]]. I don't know what good they do since no one has the administrative rights to do anything about them, but if a miracle should happen and someone from Bethesda should come by, maybe these people can be banned.

Seems most are bots anyway... *shrug* Not really a big deal either way, just letting you know.

Entim 02:26, 10 June 2007 (EDT): I know about those user categories, but I gave up keeping them up to date after I got no answer to my question (see Ashileedo's talk page). I believe we just create more spam by maintaining them.

Dragoon Wraith TALK 11:39, 10 June 2007 (EDT): Wow, nice work today. I'm gonna try to send an e-mail to Bethesda asking them to implement some kind of test to prove your humanity to the account creation process (currently, you don't even have to enter a real e-mail address), and to delete/ban those users.

Entim 11:44, 10 June 2007 (EDT): Great! Please mention they could delete the spammer and vandal users. Give me an hour, I have a couple of dozens left to mark.

Dragoon Wraith TALK 11:55, 10 June 2007 (EDT): Here's the e-mail I sent to support@bethesda.com:

To Whomever It May Concern,

In recent weeks, there has been a massive increase in the number of bots joining the CS Wiki, and ruining the hard work we have put into it. There are several vandals a day now, and it's getting very frustrating. Could the account creation process include some form of proving that you are not a bot? The "type in the characters you see in the image" system would be a good way, or at the very least force them to activate the account through responding from the e-mail address you require (but don't actually check, so far as I can tell). This is a rather significant problem on many, many websites; fixes for these kinds of things are common and widespread - implementing one should not be difficult.

Further, we have a number of users tagged as vandals or spammers, and articles tagged for deletion, but absolutely no administrators, either from Bethesda or from the community, who have the power to actually ban/delete them. There are several pages which are locked, most notably the bare-bones Help pages and the very important Main Page, which could use to be updated but cannot be. These things require administrators - either Bethesda needs to have people who check the Wiki regularly and can be gone to with requests like these, or else Bethesda needs to appoint community members to manage these things.

I've had this conversation before; Joel Burgess even recommended myself for such a position. At the time, it was determined that Bethesda could not allow a non-employee the administrative rights on the Wiki. While it should be a trivial matter to define a group that has some rights that regular members do not, but not those rights that Bethesda deems unsafe, if this is not the case, and community admins are still not a possibility, then someone from Bethesda really does need to check the Wiki regularly. It does not need to be often, just on a regular basis. Once a month, even, would be a MASSIVE improvement.

Sincerely,

<My Name Removed>

(DragoonWraith)

Dragoon Wraith TALK 12:02, 10 June 2007 (EDT): Apparently support@bethesda.com is dead, used their Contact form thing instead. I added the URLs to the lists of Vandals, Spammers, and Articles for Deletion to the e-mail, as well.

Entim 18:29, 10 June 2007 (EDT): It seems to me the more pages we revert, the more attacks we get. I think we shouldn't do reverting until the user registration method is updated, or at least for a few hours/days.

This bot jazz is getting pretty insane. Good work on labeling the vandals, but the past couple of days have been too horrific to stomach. Guess there's nothing we can do but wait for BethSoft to care.--Omzy 21:57, 10 June 2007 (EDT)

Yeah, um...it's pretty bad. I've sent a PM to the community manager at the forums. But in the time it took to type it up (roughly 15-20 minutes) the number of vandalized pages had doubled. So by the time he reads the PM there may not be much left here (other than links to porn and viagra, of course). Hopefully the message will be passed along and some admin will shut down the wiki and clean it up. Scruggs 22:01, 10 June 2007 (EDT)

Dragoon Wraith TALK 23:40, 10 June 2007 (EDT): Hmm... Yeah, that does seem to be the case. Alright, I'll stop reverting.

JBurgess 10:09, 11 June 2007 (EDT) Hey Dragoon - thanks for the PM. I've sent your message and my personal urge to add some security protocols to the folks I hope can do something systemic about it. I think I speak for a lot of us when I say how much I appreciate the dedication you guys have shown in keeping this wiki operational, and it's a shame that your energies should be wasted on administrative cleanup rather than pushing the technology beyond those wonderful boundaries we thought were in place.

[edit] Useful Tools

Entim 03:42, 30 October 2006 (EST): I've found these tools a while ago, I think they would worth to be added to the Tools category. They provide a solution for creating real normal maps for custom models.

NormalMapper.7z: Written by Jeff Doyle and nfz. Contains nmf exporters for Blender, 3DSMax and Maya. Also a Mac version of the Maya exporter, and the utilities.

ATI's NormalMapper utility: command line tool, creates the normal map using the low- and high-poly meshes you exported in nmf format. NormalMapperUI is a graphic interface for it.

NormalMapper.7z will be deleted after 30 days without downloads. Ask me if the link is dead.

[edit] That "find ground" script you had been working on

Dragoon Wraith TALK 14:02, 10 June 2007 (EDT): I seem to remember talking to you quite a while ago about a script you had devised that found the normal vectors of the ground on a given area... did that ever come to fruition? I'm trying to get objects to fall on the ground so I can figure out the Z-position of the ground, but when I use MoveTo/SetPos, it gets stuck there and doesn't move - I asked about it on the ESF, and I was recommended to ask you about it (which triggered my memory of talking about it way back when). So, did you get that working? How did you do it?

Entim 15:19, 10 June 2007 (EDT): Replied on the forum.